Title: John Kiriakou & Jackson Hinkle Analyze the Changing Global Order
Show: The JK Report
Date: 2026-07-21
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY6PSmy5v1M
Duration: 4686

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[00:00] I want to turn to an issue that is generally not really talked about uh in the in the media Jackson and that is Kashmir. I served in Pakistan for uh for a good stretch of time and Kashmir is always front and center in the mind of of every Pakistani less so in the mind of every Indian but the Indians essentially control Kashmir. Um, and it it's funny, excuse me,

[00:33] my sympathies really are with the Pakistanis on this, right? There was this this deal from the 1940s that was negotiated by the great powers and the naent United Nations and there was going to be a referendum and everybody was going to have a say and a vote and the Indians just grabbed everything and have said you know tough luck ever since. So even as recently as 2002 uh the US government in the form of the

[01:03] CIA has gone to both sides and said you know please just walk away from this it'll be better for everybody for both India and Pakistan better for the world better for the region just walk away from it neither side would walk away so with that said I was asked a question on an Indian news program not too long ago um about Kashmir and I told them what I just told you. They cut that out of the final show

[01:36] which is why I no longer do Indian and Pakistani media and um and they they asked me the follow-up question which they ran the answer to. The follow-up question was, if there were a war, who would win? And I said, well, both sides are are nuclear powers, so nobody would win. If neither side used nuclear weapons, it just stands to reason, you know, India has five times the population that Pakistan has. And just by sheer force of of population,

[02:10] the Indians would win. Immediately the death threat started again from Pakistan. And then Imran Khan's political party director sent me a letter. How he got my home address, I have no idea. He sent me a letter demanding that I apologize to the Pakistani people and to Imran Khan. It's like what are you nuts? All I said was India has five times the number of people and if there were to be a conventional conflict, the Indians would probably win. Okay. So, ignoring that,

[02:41] looking just at Kashmir, it looks to be intractable. Do you think it's intractable? And if not, where do you think the solution lies? >> Well, first of all, I'll say that uh I'm sure that's exactly what Iran Khan wants most in the world right now as he's in prison is an apology from John Kyako. sure he wants nothing more than than that. That's all that's on his mind. Um but look, I mean, I have no sympathies

[03:14] whatsoever for India. I'll just be very open and honest about that. Uh I always thought that the, you know, the the local politics and crawler were pretty interesting as a communist. Uh but apparently with all the money in the world BJP has, they can just buy elections. They can over time, right? they can will their way into existence in any part of India, any government >> and um >> and also I'll add that I also don't want to do any Indian or Pakistani media. I I

[03:45] don't know uh if you remember Chris Halali I'm sure. >> Oh yeah, your show back in the day. Oh yeah, another Greek Orthodox. >> That's right. Good guy and and a terrific analyst. Terrific analyst. >> He's terrific. But he told me the other day he went on Pakistani TV and he just said something like negative about Trump and they're like, "Oh, we have to cut the interview like no more. No more." So you can't say anything bad about Trump either, apparently. >> Oh man. >> But um I I don't I'll I'll also be

[04:18] honest in saying that I don't really know too much about um that conflict and and my sympathies lie with Pakistan on it. I've obviously I know a lot of Pakistanis they always want to well it's one of the topics that was discussed a lot uh during the Pakistan India skirmish for obvious reasons but um I I I don't know I nothing is intractable everything can be won these are the laws of history and uh well I also agree that

[04:52] in a in a normal setting I guess India would probably win just by sheer manpower power but then you also have to ask the question like how many of those how many of those people in India are really like willing to go fight and die how many of them are you know really at fighting capacity I I don't know these answers but interesting to think about nonetheless I guess >> yeah I I have to agree I have to agree on a broader scale I wanted to ask your your opinion on issues related to NATO

[05:24] um and not just NATO visa v Ukraine Russia Uh I was in Cyprus uh for the last two weeks. I just got back day before yesterday. And everywhere I went, people ask me this same hypothetical question. You know, they they fear and they hate the Turks in Cyprus and in Greece for that matter. Um and over the last 10 years or so, they've grown very very close to the Israelis. Very close to the Israelis. Which is funny because it's exactly the opposite of the way it used

[05:55] to be. It used to be that the Turks were close to the Israelis and the Greeks and the Criates were close to the Arabs. When when Erdogan decided to switch that uh that policy, everything changed. Now the Greeks and the Criates are close to the Israelis. So the question everybody had was the Israeli defense minister said recently that he um is predicting that Israel's next big fight is against Turkey. Well, the Turkish military is

[06:26] enormous, first of all, and it's very well equipped. It's it's a gigantic NATO military. If the Israelis were to attack NATO, sorry, attack Turkey, the Turks could invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter, meaning an attack on one is an attack on all. That would then force the United States to enter a war against Israel. I can't imagine any world where that would ever happen. But that's what the

[06:57] NATO charter says has to happen. And in Cyprus, everybody wanted to know. Would the US jump in on the side of the Turks or on the side of the Israelis? My answer to them was that would be the end of NATO if the if the Turks were attacked by the Israelis. Nobody would come to Turkeykey's aid. And because nobody would come to Turkeykey's aid, NATO would essentially cease to exist. This is why the criate president just

[07:28] two or three weeks ago said that the European Union needs its own military. That doesn't include the United States and doesn't include Turkey and by extension doesn't include the UK or uh or Canada either. What do you think of all that? Are people looking too much into this? No, I don't think so. Um, this was something that I was uh really interested in after the fall of Bashar

[07:58] Assad in Syria. >> Uh, it seemed as though things were really heating up in the first few months and you had um you had the Israelis calling for recognition of Kurdistan. You had initial movements taking place by the Israelis into Syria. And uh, of course, the Turkish government was making their warnings and their threats as well. Uh, but I think I think it's very possible. I think it's likely. Uh, I I don't know if this is

[08:32] really an accurate way of putting it, but it could be the culmination of those in Israel who have this greater Israel vision and those in Turkey that have a a neotoman vision. I I don't know. But Turkey, as you mentioned, it's it's not just that they're a NATO. I think >> other than the US, right, they're like the the strongest military in NATO uh or one of the strongest. They also have a very robust domestic manufacturing of military assets, especially drones.

[09:02] And this week, they just unveiled, I think it was the second iteration of uh one of their intercontinental ballistic missiles. I don't think it's too high-tech compared to what the Russians have, but it it's pretty interesting. And um Israel would be absolutely crushed. And I agree with you. No one would come to Turkeykey's defense. But how could they possibly preserve NATO if that's the question? Maybe if they maybe if they all coales and blame Turkey as the the sole party responsible for the

[09:33] start of the war and say, "Look, this is your own adventure. Uh you guys got to f for yourself." I don't know, but maybe they could say something like that. >> You just raised something that's important that I actually had forgotten about. Excuse me. That is the changing nature of warfare. And we saw it or we have seen it in the Russia Ukraine conflict. We're seeing it in the Gulf right now, the Persian Gulf. Uh it seems to me that the United States

[10:03] is way behind the times. We're seeing that wars are essentially being prosecuted with drones now, right? Not with human beings, but with drones. And it's a finite situation where where million-doll rockets are being used to defend against $10,000 drones, right? You can't just fight a fight like that forever. You're going to run out of rockets. You're going to run out of money. You're going to run out of wherewithal. And in the current case

[10:34] where the United States is providing just about all of its military hardware to the Israelis, what's left to defend the Kuwaitis, the Bahranis, the Saudis, the guties, the the Omanis, the Amiradis, there's nothing left. And another thing, too, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. The United States loves to, you know, pound its chest and say, "We're sending aircraft carrier strike forces to this part of the world [laughter] or to that part of the world."

[11:04] Nobody cares anymore. It's not the aircraft carrier strike force that's going to win the war. An aircraft carrier cannot defend itself, for example, against a hypersonic missile. It can't. It also can't defend itself indefinitely against a swarm of suicide drones. Suicide drones that the Iranians produce, the Turks produce, the Israelis produce, the Russians produce. Everybody produces these. They're cheap and they're reliable. And so the US has these, you know, multibillion dollar

[11:36] state-of-the-art crafts that are just too big and too lumbering and too slow and too out of date. So, have we seen a change in the nature of warfare, do you think? And if so, how does the US protect itself? >> Of course, uh it goes without saying, but it it's a matter of whether or not countries are adapting to it. Yeah. And you know, you look at even the drones that America loves to utilize at least over the past several years or the Israelis, these big um you know, the

[12:09] these big hulkish uh Hermes 900's or the MQ9, the different Reaper drones. >> The these are tools of the past. They're so expensive. They're so expensive and they do okay they produce very high quality images and they can be very high undetected but I mean the Iraqi militias Kative Hezbollah uh al- Shahada brigades they're flying these little FPV drones all across Victoria base in Iraq and they're flying it all across and then

[12:39] later the in the night they send some missiles in. So it's like, well, and and in Russia and the Russia Ukraine conflict, everyone knows you can't have more than three, four, maybe five men together at any time, at any point on the front, right? That it'd be insane to do that because, you know, you're about to get a drone, fiber optic drone launch in your direction and then there goes there goes the group. Uh, in Lebanon, we see all of these Israeli troops in large

[13:10] numbers stacked together. or you see convoys of vehicles still traveling with one another and then you just see the FPV dro drone go in or you see it uh drop a grenade and there goes you know six seven guys maybe a few more injured it it's insane that >> we're still witnessing this and then to think that you know bring it back full circle the conversation about taking Car Island or even Chabahar port or or Keshum Island it's like have have we not

[13:40] learned from Russian in Ukraine that these amphibious landings with large amounts of men, it doesn't work anymore. They're talking about 2,000 um 2,000 in these MEUs, 2,000 infantry in each one of these MEUs. They've sent two. They have 10,000 in the 82nd Airborne they sent over there. I mean, it's just going to be a slaughterhouse. And I don't want to see that, but that's what's going to happen. >> I don't want to see that either. One of the things that uh that American policy makers just have failed to appreciate, I

[14:11] guess, is the fact that Iran is the size of Western Europe. It's 3.8 times the size of Iraq. And we see what happened to US forces in Iraq. Uh it has a forbidding topography, high impossibly high mountains. You're right. 15,000 troops on some low-lying island in the Persian Gulf. It's not going to change the course of the war. It's just simply not. When I was still at the CIA, the Pentagon used

[14:42] to talk about liberating the greater and lesser Tuna Islands. Uh they were long claimed by Sharah, one of the emirates in the United Arab Emirates. And uh in the middle 1980s, I'm sorry, 1990s, the Iranians moved troops onto the tombs. the the Iranians had long long claimed the tombs as well and they've had the tombs ever since. So the conventional wisdom is well we're going to we're we're going to send troops to the tombs and we're going to liberate the tombs.

[15:14] Okay, number one no human beings live there. They're just empty. You're going to liberate them. Okay, great. And then what? Then what are you going to do? Has it changed anything at all? Of course not. Nothing. So, if if you're on the tombs and you're looking at a country that's the size of Western Europe, then what do you do? What comes next? >> Well, um I don't I don't think any of this is going to go well. I think this

[15:44] is just going to get worse and worse, and I think Netanyahu wants Americans to die because that's going to latch us deeper and deeper into this war. uh it shouldn't but that you know if you put some sort of sacrifice forward the the I guess conventional wisdom is finish the job but it's a job that can't be finished. Uh but John I have a question for you about >> this in Iran because one thing that I've heard you say and I think you're 100% correct you know just observing all of

[16:15] this as a layman. You know, you talked about how Iranian intelligence is known for being, you know, uh, one of the most, um, you know, infiltrated or bought off, whatever it is, however they do it, right? >> Terrible. Yes. >> How do you think it is now? Because we see the we see the development of the this, you know, decentralized mosaic defense system they have. We see the same approach with their uh propaganda, the media, all of their different, you

[16:46] know, embassy accounts and everything. It's very powerful. >> Do you think that they still have the same exact problems that they have uh had in the past regarding their intelligence? Um or do you think that most of these assassinations we see are maybe just like a few guys there that are following certain VIP individual? How how do you think it works nowadays? >> Oh yeah, that's a great question. So I think the answer is severalfold. Number one, um the Iranian intelligence service

[17:20] has long been infiltrated, especially by the Israelis. The Israelis have worked on this for decades and they've been very successful. Um number two, the Iranians have a problem with Afghan refugees. Refugees get literally nothing in Iran. No food, no water, no shelter, no medical care, no nothing. So if you're the Mossad and you go in and you offer somebody $50 a month or $100 a month just to stand on a street corner

[17:50] and tell you when the general leaves his apartment every day and what Rudy takes. That's money well spent. And then third, we learned in the last few weeks that the Israelis were able to successfully hack in to the Tehran traffic camera system so they could just sit at their computers in Jerusalem and watch when the generals and the nuclear scientists were passing through whichever intersection. And it made targeting quite simple.

[18:23] So, I think it's going to take years for the for the Iranians to rebuild any semblance of independent intelligence. I just don't think that uh that they're in a good position right now. >> One thing I was surprised by, so surprised by and what they called the Ramadan War, the most recent iteration of the war, in the 12-day war, we saw so many of these internal drone attacks. So much so to the point where they had to put their air defense systems underground, hide

[18:54] them, and just like >> accept that there was going to be some damage, right? Because they didn't want to lose those AD systems. >> That's right. >> We've seen none of that. You brought up the Afghans. They deported a 2 million, some crazy amounts of them. >> Supposed to be 2 million. >> Um >> the traffic light thing. Did they provide proof of that? And if not, do you believe that? >> Oh, I believe it. Um, you know, if you're not thinking it through, let's say you're a traffic uh official, a

[19:27] highlevel traffic official somewhere. If you're not really thinking it through, you wouldn't think that there's any need to encrypt data like that, for example, who cares what the traffic is like? It's it's out in the open. It's out in in public. Well, the Israelis care about something like that. They're going to be using it for targeting purposes. And I think that's what happened. The Jerusalem Post has been very very good about breaking these kinds of stories. They've they've broken these sorts of stories from the very beginning of the conflict or even go going back to the

[19:58] 12-day war. And um one of one thing about the Israelis and this is relatively new. They didn't used to be this way. They almost can't help themselves to to brag about their uh >> their their victories. Um, when when you're applying for for employment in an intelligence service, one of the very first questions they ask you when you're a brand new applicant is, are you comfortable working in a position where your successes will never be celebrated? And

[20:31] of course, the answer is yes. Yes. Yes. I don't need any recognition. I don't need any awards. I don't need anything. Just, you know, let me have the job. Well, it's like the Israelis now want to gloat. And so every time they do something like this signific that's significant and that's successful, they leak it to the Israeli media and the Israeli media dutifully, you know, publish the article. For example, I'll give you another example and this is kind of the most egregious one. The uh Hezbollah pager operation.

[21:02] I'll tell you something funny. There was a uh there I don't want to point any fingers, but there was a an Eastern European news outlet that asked me that day if I would uh come on their their show and talk about it. And I said, "Absolutely." They said, "What did you think of the operation?" I said, "It's a war crime, but it's an act of genius." I said, "Can you imagine the moving parts that are involved in an operation like this?

[21:32] moving parts that go back for years. You've got to buy the manufacturer. You have to control the supply chain. You have to control the middleman that was in like Taiwan or South Korea or something and then control the next supply chain all the way to Hisbala and then you have to intercept it at some point and pack it all full of explosives all the while making sure that it continues to work to to send and receive pages. And they said, "Yeah, but but it was a a

[22:04] crime." I said, "Yeah, sure it was a crime." Well, can't you talk about how big of a crime it was? And I said, "Sure, I can talk about how big a crime it was, but it was operationally it was an act of genius." In the end, they were like, "Thanks. We don't think we need your commentary this time." Well, you know, let let's call a spade a spade here. These guys don't care one wit about international law. They care about winning. And winning means killing the enemy. And so they just do whatever they want

[22:36] to do. But we know that whole story because the Mossad leaked it to the Jerusalem Post and they gave us the details because they were so proud of themselves. >> Yeah. I I I was going to ask you, you know, um it seems like normally these sorts of situations wouldn't be reported if they were truthful because maybe you want to replicate certain uh >> That's right. >> operations or or achievements.

[23:06] >> I will say the the Lebanon thing. I mean, obviously you said the first thing you said, war crime. I I do wonder uh how successful of an operation it was because >> right >> when when when I was there I was only there for like a week or something in Lebanon and um I w I was primarily in Beirut. I went to the south one day, but I could, you know, there there was more than 10 people I met in that period of

[23:37] time uh who came up to me and were just like, you know, very passionate and um and showing me like their little kids and stuff that had their like faces and hands blown off from the pager attack. I'm like, you know, I understand uh what you're saying. a successful operation is a successful operation and things need to be recognized, right? Because if you can't recognize, I guess, success, then uh you're doomed to fall victim to it

[24:08] again. I guess we could look at it like that. But I do wonder how successful that was given maybe how many of the pagers pagers were in Lebanon, how many of them actually hit a target, >> right? I probably it was a long period of time in between where the pagers were actually delivered and then blown up. I don't know. But these are these are things I wondered after going there uh and and seeing that. >> Well, you rais a good point. Um in the beginning it looked like it was entirely successful. It had the the word that was

[24:39] being bandied about was it had decapitated Hezbollah. And remember, in the immediate aftermath, just the days after the the pager attack, the Israelis also bombed Beirut, southern Beirut, the suburbs. They killed something like the top three or top four um leaders of Hezbollah. And I remember commentators saying that Hezbollah essentially had ceased to exist, at least for the time being. It was going to take 6 to 12 months for them to try to reconstitute. And that

[25:11] wasn't that wasn't true. They reconstituted almost immediately. Otherwise, the Israelis wouldn't have had to continue bombing southern Beirut. And and another thing about the Israelis, and I know I'm going to get more death threats for saying this, but I'm going to say it because it's true. If the Israelis want to kill one person, one single person, let's say he's a Hezbollah leader or some military official or whatever, and they know that he's in an apartment, they will blow up the entire city block

[25:42] and kill a thousand people if they can feel certain that they got this one leader. That is a war crime. You can't do that. But the Israelis do it all the time and nobody bats an eye. And I think that the fact that they're still doing that in Beirut points to the fact that the patriot attack was not as successful as they led us to believe. It was not. And Hezbollah was not decapitated.

[26:13] >> Yeah. Uh I mean even even um the Iranians when they they uh Oh jeez, I'm having a brain fart. the the uh he was he was the chairman of the Supreme National Security Council, >> right? >> Uh until they assassinated him, negotiating team as well. But it's like they took out again he he he had gone to um I think it was a goods day protest not too long after the war started and all the pe the presidents the ministers were all there and I get showing strong

[26:45] you know patriotism strong show of force you're not fearful but then clearly some way or another they tracked him back to his was his sister's apartment and then they blew up the whole apartment block it's like >> they did >> maybe maybe at war we should be a little bit more careful >> Jackson you've become one of the most recognizable independent political commentators online and I want to ask you a bunch of questions about it. So starting I want to say that you do not have an ideology that is neatly defined in a little box on on Wikipedia. It

[27:17] shows that it's neatly defined in a little box, but that's just simply not true. So, how would you describe your own ideology to someone who who doesn't yet know you but is intrigued by some of the some of the things that you've said? How would you describe yourself? >> Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. I'll repeat again. I'm a huge fan of yours and >> concern the same way. Same same here. I'm a huge fan of yours. >> I don't know what I do without all these

[27:48] stories. I mean whether it's on Tik Tok or YouTube, I'm just inundated and it's a beautiful thing. Um but you know I uh I guess you know I grew up in an a-olitical household and somewhere along the line I started getting interested in politics and realizing all the different sorts of lies that were sold. Everyone knows what they are and um I started to really get interested in Marxist literature. Uh so I am a Marxist Leninist. I'm an American communist, but

[28:19] also with that, you know, I'm an American patriot. I'm an Orthodox Christian. Uh these are all things that I think can properly describe who I am. And as a communist, some people hear that and they say, you know, by God, what he doesn't look like he went to, you know, Berkeley or something and he doesn't have blue hair. Uh, but John, you probably know better than just about anyone else that around the world, communism looks way different than it does in America. It's not this George

[28:49] Soros phenomena that we see in the United States. >> Uh, communists are in many cases traditionalists. They can be radical. They are radical, of course. >> Um, but not in the way we think of where people have like five different genders in the United States and they hate their country, right? Communists should love their country. Yes. >> And be patriots. >> Actually, my partner happens to be a communist. Uh she was not born in the United States and she practices the same kind of communism that you're talking

[29:19] about right now where it's not doctrinire ideological communism. It's a concern for the poor, for the downtrodden, for those whose civil and human rights are not respected. Um she happens to not be religious. you're an Orthodox Christian. I'm an Orthodox Christian. Uh you can have different, you know, strains of of strains of communism. And overseas, pretty much

[29:49] anywhere, not in the United States, being a communist or saying that you are a communist is not something that is considered to be a dirty little secret. >> Yeah. >> Do you get push back? Of course, we get push back um but >> you know I I think that people are more open-minded now than ever before uh about you know different ideologies or just different questions that are being

[30:20] asked hearing different perspectives and that's the beautiful thing especially about Ginz and this new digital era that we're living in is uh so many eyes are being really open for the first time and once they're open you can't close them again. So, it's not to say that, you know, all of my followers or even a large portion of them are communists. They're definitely not. But it's about creating a big tint of people from all political backgrounds that can unite against this Epstein regime on the

[30:52] liberal and uh you know, conservative side. It's one big party as we all know. But what is Washington DC today? >> Yeah. Isn't that the truth? I want to ask you about foreign policy and I hope you don't mind if I spend a little bit of time on foreign policy. This is this is a love of mine and one of my great interests. Uh but you've taken some foreign policy positions that are almost in lock step with mine. We may come to the same conclusions from different places but we come to the same conclusions. So you have taken positions

[31:25] in support of Palestinians for example. So have I. And before we started talking, I mentioned to you, I've been getting a lot of death threats. A lot. You know, at first I just blow them off their crackpots. I get maybe one a year, one every couple of years. Now I'm getting every couple of days I'm getting I'm getting death threats. And they've become very, very specific. They are always because of my position in support of Palestinian human rights. And on

[31:55] that, like you, I will never waver. never. Uh, but they're very specific, like telling me, "I can't wait to see your brains on the sidewalk in front of," and then they recite my home address. I went to see an A-list, internationally known podcaster two weeks ago, and we've been friends for more than a decade. And he was wearing a bulletproof vest and he had security in the office. In fact, I

[32:26] was introducing myself to not introducing myself. I was saying hi to everybody around him. It's mostly young people. And there was a guy a little bit older than me and I said, "Hi, I'm John." I shook his hand. And he said, "Oh, we've met." I said, "Oh, we have. Was it Was it last time I was up here?" He said, "Nope." It was in the safe house, 2002, Islamabad. And I said, "Oh, I remember you." I said, "You were the guy." And he said, "Yeah, I was the guy." I said, 'What are you doing here? He said, 'I'm heading

[32:57] security.' But this is how dangerous things have become since Charlie Kirk was killed. There are these allegations that maybe an ally of the United States was behind the murder of Charlie Kirk. We don't know. The FBI and the Utah State Police aren't releasing any information. But my point here is that people who have taken positions in support of Palestinian human rights are being described as extremists and anti-semites and all kinds of terrible

[33:28] things leading to death threats. What has your experience been? And why have you come out in support of Palestinian human rights? And that's not a rhetorical question. I mean it quite literally. Well, that's a that's an incredible story and just goes to show how serious uh everyone I hope everyone is taking this matter, right? I hope you're taking it that seriously given what you just told me. I hope that Tucker's taking it that seriously. Uh because a lot of

[33:58] people would be very happy to see more horrifying things happen like what happened to Charlie Kirk. Yeah. >> To those who again just state the obvious that you can't uh you know you can't just bomb an entire country with want and disregard for civilian life. You can't just carpet bomb the place and turn it into a parking lot. But you know there's so many aspects to why I think people support the Palestinians or support any of the countries that are being targeted by US or proxy aggression

[34:29] right now. And the way that I see it, it's twofold. I mean, of course, I feel as though our government is captured by big finance, by finance capital. I think it doesn't represent us, so on and so forth. Um, and every single blow to the American empire, you know, especially abroad as it stretches its wings with these hundreds of military bases and all the operations that it carries out on a daily basis. Uh, I say that whoever does that, whoever strikes that blow is a

[35:00] brother in the common struggle that I'm in to try and actually get a government that represents, you know, the the needs of the working class of America. And it's obviously not to say that I would ever support terrorism, you know, against our government or something like that, but it's just these these are sovereign struggles that people are waging to try and safeguard their homelands. And that's the other aspect here because in the same way that you know most people I'm beginning to see that some people can't recognize this

[35:31] basic fact anymore but in the way that most people understand that for example child sexual abuse is horrific and disgusting and demonic and you know the worst thing that you could ever imagine because on so many levels but of course at its core you are stripping a child of its of its potential for living a a a life that uh has some sort of meaning, a life that has some sort of hope. You're stripping that away from a child. That's exactly what the US is doing to all of

[36:04] these countries, all of these innocent people all across the world. They're stripping away their right to live some sort of a meaningful life uh with hope that things could get better. And I think that's horrific. And I think it's terrifying that this has been normalized. Why do you think we have um different rules for different countries? And I'll tell you what what pops into mind immediately. You just raised it. Is this Israeli government official who was arrested for a child sex crime in Las

[36:36] Vegas, I don't know, 6, eight months ago, and the next thing you know, before the guy could even be arraigned, he's on a plane back to Israel. Why? Because Israel does not extradite Jews. for any reason and he got off scot-free. Now, just yesterday or the day before yesterday, another Israeli government official was arrested in the United States for a child sex crime. We should not expect that there will be justice in that case. Why do we put up

[37:07] with things like this? What is it about the Israelis that they have such a hold on us? Well, I think uh you're in the position to answer that question better than I am, but [laughter] you know, you just laid out the perfect example about uh the individual who threatened you over standing up for Palestinian rights. And you know, we're just commentators. Of course, we you know, I've been threatened, you've been threatened. Um, you know, before the Iran war started, I was trying to organize a group of people to go out to

[37:38] Iran and just like document what's going on in the leadup to what we assumed all to be was going to be a major war. And I received word through a trusted individual that I know and is, you know, very high up and whatnot that uh, you know, not because of me necessarily, but because the people we're trying to bring to this trip to Iran. um the war is about to begin and Israel and the United States would love to have the opportunity to accidentally, you know, launch a Tomic tomahawk missile in our

[38:09] direction or something. So, that trip got cancelled. >> Um I think it's primarily due to blackmail. I mean, how else could you describe it, right? I mean, there you brought up Charlie Kirk. Of course, we don't have uh you know rubber stamp proof of you know someone in Israel did something or they were somehow involved. We have a lot of ancillary details that we can look at that are very concerning. Um but same could be said about uh other you know other other leaders in American

[38:41] history who've been assassinated. You could look at uh USS Liberty for example and really the fallout of that. There's too many instances to count and you just don't see that with other countries. You know, it's like it's just not a thing whether it's >> an adversary or a supposed ally. Sure, you may have push back like with Ukraine. Um but the level of which we see that push back or the threats, it's nowhere near to the level we see with Israel. >> Yeah, that's so true. There there are a couple of things that bother me very

[39:11] much. Uh, one is that if you are not in lock step politically with Benjamin Netanyahu, not with Israel, with Benjamin Netanyahu specifically, you're an anti-semite. And the Israelis have gotten to the point where they describe everybody as an anti-semite. I've got a close friend who's an American citizen now, but he had been born and raised in Israel. He served in the IDF. He was in special forces, married an American, moved to the United States, and he told me that

[39:42] they're taught in schools as they're growing up to accuse everybody who doesn't agree with Israel of anti-semitism. And I said to him, you know, that's probably the biggest engine for anti-semitism that's out there. You can't accuse everybody of being anti-semitic, including semites. They accuse Palestinians all the time of being anti-semmites. and there are they are the original Semmites practically or among the original Semmites. So anyway, that's one thing. The other thing is is

[40:15] open interference in American politics and American elections. I was on Capitol Hill the other day and I'll tell you very few things make me as angry as when I went to, for example, the office of Senator Tom Cotton, the conservative Republican from uh Arkansas. He has an Israeli flag in the hall outside his office. Like, can you imagine if somebody had a Russian flag or even in my case a Greek flag, we would be accused of, you know, espionage or or

[40:49] uh not being patriotic or whatever, but you put an an Israeli flag and then people salute it. We have a congressman from Florida who went on to the floor of the House of Representatives wearing an IDF uniform to show his solidarity with with Israel. You know, a a lot of these these things to me would seriously call into question the patriotism of our elected officials. Lindsey Graham, probably my least favorite uh elected

[41:21] official on Capitol Hill for a whole bunch of reasons, uh said just a couple of days ago that until he draws his last breath, he said his last breath will be in support of Israel. Well, how about in support of America? Like, has that even occurred to you? It's it's I'm mystified by this this attitude on Capitol Hill. why it didn't used to be like that. You know, I'm reading a book right now about uh John

[41:51] Kennedy and his interactions with the Israelis, especially around the nuclear issue. And um John Kennedy was very upset with the Israelis. The Israelis were very upset with John Kennedy and may have played a role in his demise. We don't know. Uh Lyndon Johnson was afraid of the Israelis. And then Richard Nixon guaranteed Israeli security for the first time in history. guaranteed it and nothing has been the same ever since. Is there any going back from that?

[42:22] But you bring up the example of how being a you know what would effectively be described as an agent of the state of Israel. That that's non-existent. you know, you can't uh you can't be expected to receive however many hundreds of thousands of dollars from the state of Israel or their foreign ministry or media apparatus and then uh someone asking you to go register under FAR, the Foreign Agents Registration Act. That's just not going to happen. Um at least in 99% of the cases, maybe there's a few

[42:54] outliers. Uh but you know, it's like I think it should go even beyond that. If if someone was working for the North Koreans, I I don't think it's a matter of whether or not they did or did not register under the Foreign Agents Act uh as to whether or not they'd avoid any sort of criminal investigation. And I think if you are getting paid by the North Koreans, you know, you're going to have a pretty lengthy file on you investigation and probably you're going to be prosecuted

[43:24] uh because we don't even allow American citizens with passports in good standing to enter into North Korea at this point in time thanks to Trump under his first administration. I think that's where the policy should be with the Israelis. I mean, this is a terrorist state that's committing a genocide in Gaza that wants it and is working to annex the West Bank. They are committing war crime after war crime, not just in the south of Lebanon, not just cutting it off and occupying it yet again, but trying to uh

[43:54] target Beirut as much as they can without receiving any sort of slap on the wrist from the United States. And now Iran. And now I'm I'm hearing from my Iraqi friends. I'm seeing these photos of uh you know, some some exploded uh military assets in Iraq. They've got some sort of a military base in Iraq. I know Max Blumenthal was just on Jimmy Door's show talking about it. I I don't even know what that's about, but I'd imagine maybe in in Herbal, I don't know. Uh I could be wrong about that,

[44:24] but it's like this is a legitimate terrorist government. North Korea, okay, maybe you find them scary, but like what are they doing? Did they just slaughter 200,000 plus civilians in a in a neighboring state? No. Why are we treating our so-called enemies as these horrifying paras that no one can ever even talk to? But then with Israel, there's no rules whatsoever. It's it's sickening. So yeah, I think I agree with you. The these sorts of policy changes need to be the first steps. Obviously JFK and RFK

[44:57] tried to do that and then magically after JFK was assassinated and then Bobby tried to run for president, he got assassinated in California. That policy is never talked about again of registering the Israel lobby as a foreign agent in the United States. >> No, it's not talked about about again. I want to ask your opinion on something too. I've said on a bunch of uh of podcasts that starting around 1986 when Ronald Reagan was president, literally every single Israeli prime minister who

[45:29] would come to Washington would ask every president Reagan, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, uh Barack Obama, Donald Trump, and uh and Joe Biden. They would ask every single president, "Please bomb Iran. Please bomb Iran. Please bomb Iran." And every single president said, "No." In fact, Barack Obama and and it it's like a kick in my gut to have to to compliment Barack Obama. But Barack

[45:59] Obama said a couple of weeks ago that when Benjamin Netanyahu came and Obama was president and he said, "Please bomb Iran," Obama said, "No." Netanyahu said, "If you don't bomb Iran, I'm going to use nuclear weapons against Iran." And Obama said, "Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm not going to stop you. Go ahead and use nuclear weapons." And of course, it was a bluff. Well, the conventional wisdom is that Netanyahu came back earlier this year and and asked Donald Trump, "Bomb Iran." Trump said no. He said, "If you

[46:30] don't bomb Iran, I'm going to use nuclear weapons." Trump said yes. And and now here we're involved in a a war that we can't win. Do you think that that narrative is true? Do you think that the Israelis bullied us and threatened us? And and the reason why I ask is this. Just recently, Donald Trump declared a ceasefire in Lebanon, right? And as soon as he declared it, the Israelis bombed Lebanon again. And it just seems to me that the Israelis do whatever they want,

[47:01] whenever they want, knowing that the United States will never push back. Do you think that's true, number one? And number two, why and how do the Israelis get away with that? Well, I think to answer quickly, I think yeah, that is true to a certain extent. I mean, I think Israel and the US probably have differing goals in in Lebanon in particular. As I understand, the US is building like the largest consulate or one one of the largest consulates or embassies in the world

[47:32] right now in Beirut. So, I don't know, but maybe the US would prefer stability. Uh clearly this idea of trying to kill off Hezbollah didn't work. Um that didn't work at all. I mean look at how strong they are. >> And it's not even about the missiles anymore. It's about the drones. How how quickly they can produce them, how cheap, and they're pretty skilled operators for such a short period of time using these FPV drones and hitting highv value targets. But I think um

[48:03] yeah, I'm sure that Israel acts without any sort of regard for uh US requests or anything like that. But on the flip side, I do believe that the Iran war has been made out uh into a a single narrative, that being that Netanyahu forced us into this. And it it kind of absolves Trump of any sort of real wrongdoing or any any sort of power that he himself has to make that decision. As

[48:35] you mentioned with Obama, if that story happens to be true, I mean that that goes to show that you as the president, you do have the capacity to make a decision. You do have the capacity to make certain threats. If they can threaten you, you can threaten them right back. >> Yeah. And I I think it boils down to the simple fact that the US has wanted this war for for decades and decades. And right now you you you've got proxy war against Russia, which is a mess. You've got millions and millions of dollars of

[49:08] weapon shipments to Taiwan >> and Iran. If you just look at it from the US perspective, the DOE is going to be very happy. all the Gulf states get nerfed and the oil industry there goes you know uh through through the uh through the floor and American oil companies in the long term I think will benefit from that. You look at the geopolitical analysis well if you if you bulcanize Iran into a dozen micro states where there's going to be terrorism all over the place it's going to turn into

[49:38] some Syria 2.0 do that's going to cause problems for Russia in the south. And also one of the one of the discussion points has been whether or not the US is going to invade. And I don't really know if I believe this whole Car Island story. That seems like a very difficult operation. I think it'd be more likely that, you know, I'm no expert, but it seems likely that they would target uh Chabahar in the south in the southeast. >> Yeah. And if they target that and they get the local Beluchcci people on their

[50:09] side, which I don't think they'll do, but that cuts off Iran from Afghanistan and Pakistan, which cuts off China's belt and road initiative. So, >> and and keep in mind too, I'm sorry to interrupt you, keep in mind that the Baluchi are generally Sunni Muslims, even though they are in majority Shia Iran, in that part of southeastern Iran and southwestern uh Pakistan, southern Afghanistan, they're Sunni Muslims. And there's already a separatist movement there, the Beluch people's army. So I think you're right. Uh if they really

[50:40] wanted to stir up trouble, that's where that's where they're likely to do it. >> Yeah. And and even Netanyahu, I think, understands all this stuff. When he went to the United N when he Yeah. It was the UN General Assembly he went to, he held up those two signs that said uh you know, the curse and the solution are something. Yeah. Yeah. And the curse was just China's belt and road initiative. The solution was the uh what do you call it the the India India something corridor to Europe where it goes through

[51:11] Israel. >> So I think >> I think there's a lot of motives here but I think to say that it's all Israel's fault is um missing the mark. I'm going to ask you to compare yourself to some of these other influencers and and political commentators who have really made names for themselves especially in the United States. What what responsibility do you think influencers and political commentators have when it comes to discussing conflicts and wars or breaking international events? I'm thinking about, for example, for example, Candace

[51:42] Owen. Um, for a long time I thought Candace Owen was a nut. And lately I've been thinking, well, Candace Owen really talks some sense on some of these issues. Now, she still says some nutty things like, "I will never believe that the Egyptian Air Force killed Charlie Kirk," which has long been her position. "I will never believe that Mrs. Mcronone is a man," which has long been her position. But on some of these other issues, she's really talking sense. So what responsibility do you think people

[52:12] like Candice or you know Tucker Carlson or anybody who commands a large following have when when talking about these big international issues? >> Well, I'll just say as a brief caveat because I I you know during the Tory Kirk stuff I was like religiously watching her podcast. [laughter] The only thing you know I don't agree with her on everything either. Like I don't believe that Stalin killed like 600 quadrillion Christians [laughter] or

[52:43] whatever she claims. >> Um which also Tucker kind of talks about that. I love both of them, but [laughter] >> you know, let's be real. Uh but the the Egyptian plane, I think she's kind of saying like, oh, you know, it's an Egyptian flagged plane or they but maybe it's really an Israeli plane. I don't know. I'm I'm not uh fully sure of whether she knows what she believes in regarding that story either with the planes, but um you know, the the Israelis have done at least

[53:13] reconnaissance flights in previous wars where they've used planes that are either uh no markings or markings that resemble that of uh their own adversaries. So, I I wouldn't be surprised if anything nowadays, but I think that uh Tucker, Candace, amazing. I hope Tucker, you know, I heard Alex Jones this morning say that Tucker was named by Sebastian Gorka as being under this counterterrorism investigation. How Sebastian Gorka got

[53:45] into that position, I have no idea. British agent, Israeli British agent, Ukrainian agent. I have no idea. But Tucker, I think, should take the opportunity, strike while the iron's hot, announce his candidacy for president. Um, I would 1 million% support him, whatever that means for Tucker, probably nothing. But I think he needs to understand that a lot more Americans would support him than anyone else. And it's amazing someone like Tucker, a Fox News conservative his

[54:16] whole life. He's got me on his side. I'm a communist. He's got George Galloway on his side. we he's got everyone. He's got the libertarians. It's like I I don't know. I just I would love to see that. And obviously I can't imagine what sort of a sacrifice that would be. Uh but I think the ultimate goal of influencers if they're talking about politics should be to affect political change. And it it's really kind of I think uh shameful when you have Americans com on social media with big followings complaining so

[54:48] much and making so much money off of it in the process but not doing anything really even slightly creative to try and uh >> oh my god change the >> You're so right. You're so right. Blah blah blah. What's what's the whole purpose if you just sit in front of a camera every day and just say blah blah blah blah. It doesn't make any difference. I saw Tucker a couple of weeks ago and I said to him, "You've got to run for president. You've got to." I said, "I know that Glenn Greenwald

[55:18] talked to you about this a week ago. You've got to run for president. And if you do, I'm all in." I said, "I'll do anything you want me to do." And I fully expected him to push back because I've said this to him before. This time was different. this time. And and he might he might even tell me I'm looking too too far into it. This time he didn't say no. He said, "Well, I like my life the way it is, and I don't think my wife would be happy if I ran for

[55:48] president, and my sons just got married, and you know, he went on and on, but he didn't say no." So, I'm hoping, man, I'm hoping for the best because the system that we have in the United States is irretrievably broken. I I said just the other day on a show that um as recently as a hundred years ago, we had like six viable political parties in the United States. Six. 150 years ago, if you were, let's say, a

[56:21] cabinet member or a senior member of Congress and you didn't like something that your party leadership did, you just switch parties. There were a half a dozen parties or more that you could switch to. Solomon P. Chase, who was the secretary of the Treasury under Abraham Lincoln, was a member of five different political parties over the course of his career because every time they took a position that he disagreed with, he would just move to a different party, move to this party, move to that party. You know, we had the wigs which became

[56:51] the the Republicans and then there were the radical Republicans and the conservative Republicans and then the Democrats were the Southern Democrats and the anti-slavery Democrats and Okay. So why is it that the libertarians always get 1% and the Greens always get a half of 1%. It can't be because every American either loves the Republicans or loves the Democrats. I live here. I know that that's just simply not true. But we've convinced

[57:24] ourselves that the duopoly is the way to go. And it's not the way to go. It holds us back. And then we can't understand why in a good year 50% of registered uh voters actually bother to go cast a vote. It doesn't make any sense to me. Like you, I I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. I was a thirdgeneration Democrat and I left the Democratic party because in my view it moved far too far

[57:56] to the right, especially on these [clears throat] issues of civil liberties and foreign policy and defense and there might as well just be Republicans. All the stuff that the Democrats stand for today are things that Ronald Reagan advocated in the 1990s 1980s. And we thought he was so far extreme rightwing that he couldn't possibly get elected president and then he won 49 states and now he's so so liberal by today's standards that he could never win a Republican

[58:27] nomination. And that's where the Democrats are today. So what about the rest of us that that believe in, you know, no war, full employment, labor unions? What about us? I don't like either one of these guys. And and then what? I'm made to feel like an extremist. I'm a left-wing extremist. Give me a break. I'm mainstream. But the rest of them don't want to admit it. It's very frustrating. And you know,

[58:57] Tucker said to me, he said, "You and I probably disagree on fully half of the issues." I said, "I don't care. I've known you for more than a decade. I trust you and I know that every time your mouth opens to say something to me, you're telling me the truth and that's what the country needs right now. Maybe I don't agree with it, but you're telling me the truth. So if you have any influence with Tucker Carlson, lay it on, man. Tell him his country needs him. >> Everybody else,

[59:28] >> I second that. whoever hears I I told George Galloway, by the way, George George said very similar story to what you just said the last time I spoke to him about it. And I know Jimmy uh Jimmy Door was going to shoot him a text about it, too. Uh not that he hasn't before. I know he has, but just reiterate, of course. So, I second that. for anyone who has any sort of uh you know good friendship with Tucker, let let's let's let him know that there is support from all corners of American American

[59:59] political and apolitical life uh for him doing something like this. I mean, it' just be so beautiful and and what a middle finger to those Sebastian Goras and Kosh Patels and whoever else >> that are trying to go after him for saying that we shouldn't pursue proxy wars and war with Iran and whatever else. It's like, yeah, you you want to do that, we're going to we're going to make him president. If you want to try to do some BS counterterrorism, whatever charges investigation, no, we're we're

[1:00:30] going to make him president, actually. >> Amen to that. >> That's what I hope for. Amen to that. That's exactly what I hope for. I will say, you know, he used to live, of course, here in Washington. Well, no, I'm not in Washington now. I He used to live in Washington and um and left during COVID. Uh moved to the to the to New England, uh built a little house and uh and has lived happily ever after. And I asked him once, I said, "Why why all the way up here?" He lives way out in the in the

[1:01:01] woods. and he said that uh it was his favorite place from childhood. He always loved it. He's an avid fly fisherman. So, he goes fishing almost every day and um and his family loves it and uh I think he would be reluctant to come back to Washington. But, you know, maybe if we're able to convince him that his country needs him, we can get him to make that decision. That would be pretty good. Look, Nixon had the Western White House in San Clemen, California. The beach is

[1:01:33] just north of Camp Pendleton. That's where I grew up. I remember visiting it when I was a kid. Uh Tucker can have his uh his northeastern white house or something. Or he grew up in Carl'sbad. He can actually go back to Nixon's old Western White House if it's not privately owned. >> I'll tell you what, there there are very few places in in the United States that I would like to live more than Carl'sbad. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Carl'sbad. All all of that area is just I think some of the most uh pristine pristine uh

[1:02:07] pieces of of beachfront that we have in America. But uh John, if if I have time, can I ask you one more question? I don't know if uh >> Go right ahead. >> Okay. One of one of the things that I've heard you say um speaking about your youth, we were talking about Tucker's youth. Speaking about your youth, you say that you were just infatuated with uh Middle Eastern >> poetry and culture and things like this. Um I I definitely have like come to learn about that stuff. I wasn't interested from from my youth or

[1:02:39] anything. And you said that that's what led you to uh pursue uh I believe it was not just Arabic language, but did you also pursue Arabic studies? >> Yes, I got a degree in Middle Eastern studies. And it's funny at uh at George Washington University, it was a relatively new degree program. I was one of only four students in it in a student body of, you know, 30 plus thousand people. Um and I went to the dean and I said uh I I said I had a complaint about the program. The the political studies

[1:03:09] are great, but there's no there's no uh requirement to study Islam or oil economics. And that just didn't make any sense to me. and he said, "Don't tell me how to run my program, kid." [laughter] So, he seriously did. So, um, so George Washington University was part of something called the DC Consortium or the Consortium of DC Universities and I found, um, an oil economics class at uh, Georgetown University. So I took oil

[1:03:40] economics at Georgetown and then a year later GW hired say Jose Nasser the father of Vali Nasser who used to be well he was the sha of Iran's last chief of staff but politics aside he was one of the greatest thinkers in contemporary contemporary Shiism and so I studied under him for the next two years. I remember the first class that I took uh from him. He assigned 12 books on Islam

[1:04:11] and he had written all 12 of them which just impressed the heck out of me. He's still alive. He's something like 98 years old and living here in the United States. But he opened up a whole new world for me. And also I was very fortunate in that when I was a freshman um Iranian students who had fled the revolution were juniors and seniors. When I was a senior we were getting the refugees from the Lebanese civil war. So

[1:04:43] I was surrounded by by Muslims in that program. I learned so much from them about the culture, about the language, about the religion. I just I couldn't get enough. I've said too in podcasts, I told my parents when I was 9 years old that I wanted to be a spy when I grew up >> and they thought that was cute and they bought me walkie-talkies for Christmas. My brother and I would run around the neighborhood talking to each other on the walkie-talkies. But when I was 16

[1:05:13] years old, I told my father specifically that I wanted to be a spy in the Middle East. And he was like, "Ah, still with the spy stuff. can't you be a dentist or something? I said, "Dad, I really want to be a spy and I want to live in the Middle East." >> He thought I was nuts. And then I ended up being a spy in the Middle East. The question that the main question I wanted to ask you about that was like with that profound love and appreciation of these different cultures and stuff,

[1:12:03] together to the Golan Heights and we really bonded." And I said, ' And I'm sure that's true, but you can't call him my dear friend in public. It's a bad look. And he's like, "All right, all right, all right." >> And I don't even know if he listened, but yeah, that's just how they are because they're smarter than we are. >> Motorbikes with Assad to go Heights. That's >> I can't imagine the stories, but >> Wow. Wow. Well, yeah. I just I I always

[1:12:34] thought about that that earlier question I had for you because I'm like, you know, the way you talk, you learn the you learn Arabic, you do have such a deep appreciation that we can all see. I'm like, I look at these agencies today that operate, you know, outside of the shadows in the light, and I just look at them, I'm like, I don't think any of these people appreciate the thousands of years old cultures that they're bombing right now >> or trying to uh influence in some way. and turn turn into what we have in Syria

[1:13:05] now. Two of the oldest some of the oldest cities on the face of the earth. And now they're hosting like these weird Nicki Minaj basketball games for Galani. I don't even know what it is anymore. >> I've got to tell you, I had dinner with a senior Turkish government official. I'm going to say four or five weeks ago. Senior level. He he was in Washington. He reached out to me and said he wanted to take me to dinner and talk about foreign policy from the perspective of an informed private citizen. I

[1:13:35] said,"Great. How do you turn that down?" So, as soon as we sat down, I said, "Listen, before we talk, you got to get out of Cypress. You just have to get out of Cypress. There can't be peace anywhere in the region while you're in Cypress." He says, "Okay, okay. All right. That's not what I wanted to talk about." I said, "Okay, I'm happy to talk about whatever you want, but you have to get out of Cypress." So, we got to the point of talking about Syria and I [clears throat] said to him, because I'm an idiot sometimes, I said, "Jolani,

[1:14:06] this guy has to be a CIA asset, right? He has to be. I mean, he comes out of nowhere. He's the former like co-founder of of ISIS, dish, whatever you want to call it. He's a former senior commander of al-Qaeda. He appears to be installed in the presidency of Syria practically overnight, just like that. And then the very next day, the president of the United States congratulates him and lifts all sanctions. I said, "That just has CIA written all over it. He has to

[1:14:37] be CIA." And the guy laughed. He said, "No, he's ours. Turkish National Intelligence Organization. We created him from nothing and we installed him in Syria." I said, 'You know what? That actually makes more sense. But yeah, he proudly, gladly just came out with it that Galani is a Turkish asset, which I thought was quite dramatic and utterly believable.

[1:15:08] >> Yeah. I I remember Max Blumenthal and Management of Savagery, his his amazing book, everyone should read. He talked a lot about the rat lines. >> Yes. of weapons that they were running to those guys in Syria and uh how when they'd get injured, they'd go right across the border into Turkey and uh be treated for whatever injuries they had, then they'll go back to eventually they'll find themselves in Idlib and they're running these like giant whatever it is, fuel, drugs, whatever it is. Yeah. >> Running stuff and making money.

[1:15:40] >> Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And it's funny because the the Turks have this odd relationship with the Kurds. like they're okay with the Iraqi Kurds kind of. They don't at all like the Syrian Kurds. They actively hate their own Kurds, but then they're willing to sort of deal with everybody else. It's it's a it's a tenuous situation there. I want to add one other thing about Syria. The first time I ever went to Syria, I was preparing to go to Syria for the

[1:16:11] very first time. It was 19 like 92, I think. and Hazalasad was was the uh the leader of Syria at the time. And my boss said to me, "So Syria, huh?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm excited to go to Syria. I've never been to Syria before." And he said, "Yeah, it's going to be pretty great, but uh but you're never going to actually meet another Syrian, and you'll certainly never see the inside of a Syrian's home." I said, "Okay, whatever." So I go, and um surveillance

[1:16:43] was very heavy. When I say very heavy, I mean like like comically heavy where I'm walking down the street and the car from the Syrian intelligence service is driving at 2 and a half miles an hour alongside of me. Finally, I turn I'm like, "Guys, come on. I'm just going to go to the restaurant over here. You're welcome to join me, which they did, I might add." Um, but anyway, I went to the souk to the bazaar because I wanted to buy one of these famous Damascus tablecloths that everybody was raving about. I wanted to give it to my to my

[1:17:14] mother. And so I go and the guy asks me, "Uh, and deinne, where are you from?" I said, "Mineta from the United States." [gasps] And he gasps. And I thought he was going to like run screaming from the room and pull down the grate and close the shop. He had just never met an American before. The guy was like in his 50s. He had never met an American. An hour later, I'm in his kitchen with his wife and his kids, and she's covering the table in food. And it was

[1:17:45] one of the most wonderful experiences I ever had. I I found the Syrians to be kind and fun and highly educated and just allound wonderful people. They live in a terrible neighborhood and they're victims of, you know, great power minations.
